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Orange Ales – Spring TX

Julius IPA Clone Recipe

It took a whole year to put this recipe together. Tons of wasted hops (not really wasted because we drank some awesome beer along the way) went into making this my mostly final work-in-progress clone recipe for the ever popular Julius IPA from Treehouse Brewing. Check back for updates to the recipe every few months.

I started with the color and grain, then worked on the hop combinations, and finally had to nail down the yeast esters. I know what you’re thinking…a Bavarian yeast? Dude you’re crazy. Well that’s the beauty of homebrewing – I feel like this is the closest representation of Julius that I’ve ever seen. After a year of not drinking any Treehouse beers, and sampling hazy IPAs and IIPAs from all over the country, I finally got a porch bomb full of Treehouse. When I opened the Julius and took a sip, the flavors hit me like a ton of bricks. “This is a freakin hefe!” I thought to myself.

VITALS

  • ABV – 6.2%
  • IBU – ? (around 70 perceived maybe)
  • SRM – 5.9
  • The yeast schedule is pretty complicated. The cheatcode for using a Bavarian Wheat as a single yeast alternative to the complicated fermentation schedule is:

WATER

  • Sulfates – 150PPM

  • Chloride – 100PPM

  • Calcium – 20PPM

  • Magnesium – 20PPM

  • Estimated Mash pH – 5.2

GRAIN

  • Golden Promise

  • 2 Row 

  • Aromatic

  • Dextrose

  • Dextrine

HOPS

  • Columbus

  • Apollo

  • Citra

YEAST

  • WB-06

  • S04

  • T58

Tasting Notes

Aroma – Similar to Julius, tropical fruits with bready malts carry this beer over the top.

Taste – follows the nose with loads of citrus up front. Easily drinking with solid hop coating through the back of the tongue.

Mouthfeel is soft and full typical of northeastern IPAs.

Yeasty Notes

**Updates to yeast and fermentation schedule**

Thanks to HomebrewTalk forum user Isomerization running some pretty awesome DNA tests on yeasts and dregs from Treehouse cans, we have a pretty solid idea of what different yeasts are in each of the Treehouse core offerings. The trick now is ratios and esters. I chose to do this:
Day 1 – 5 grams of S-04 and 2 grams of WB-06 at 74* for 24 hours
Day 2 – reduce temperature to 60* and pitch 18 grams of S04 and 2 grams of T58
Day 5 – raise temp to 70* and dry hop for 4 days
Day 9 – cold crash for 4 days and keg or bottle

To be sure I wasn’t crazy thinking I tasted a hefeweizen yeast…I went ahead and stepped some yeast up from cans of Treehouse’s ‘house’ IPAs. The beer you see pictured in the glass next to the yeast is totally unhopped and unbittered. It’s a simple 100% Pilsner malt beer with the Treehouse yeast. I’d say it’s fruitier than most NEIPAs that I’ve tried that are chewy yeast bombs.
Leave your thoughts in the comments. I’m curious to know what everyone else thinks – if you brew this.

homebrew yeast stepped up on a stir plate
Treehouse Julius, Haze, Green, Doppleganger, SAP

Brewers Notes

So here’s where I go ahead and tell you why I did the stuff I did. I’ve spent the last year using every combination of American and English yeast available to me trying to replicate the Treehouse flavor. There is a noticeable bubblegum, with some melon, and even general fruit esters that I never believed were a result of the malt or hop combo. Yes, I do believe Treehouse gets much better hops than homebrewers have access to – but I also believe that with no oxygen ingress and careful dry hopping, we can at least get close.

I’ve decided that the water chemistry plays a bigger part in the final beer than I’d ever thought. The chloride and sulfate ratios are slowly being raised as I brew more and more, but I like them where they are for now. The most recent version was as soft as a Treehouse core IPA.

I’d almost say dry hopping is the most important part of this beer (Not anymore), but it’s a combination of things. Here’s what I do know:
I like a bigger whirlpool now, but I’m WP’ing at 108* for 30 minutes instead of 180*. I also feel like the commercial version is a lot less hop forward than I ever imagined. the Treehouse brewing crew has made what I’d consider a Golden Triangle of hops, malt, and esters. The more I dig into Julius, the more I think it’s the most beautiful beer ever designed.

If you dry hop in vinyl bags you won’t get the correct hop exposure to your wort and your utilization will go to shit.
I’ve also found that even though Julius probably isn’t double dry hopped, if you want major aroma you’ll want to keg hop for a few days and then transfer to a serving keg. I don’t keg hop at all anymore. A single DH in the fermenter is plenty for this beer.
Most important thing is keep the beer away from oxygen at any expense. The first thing to go is your aroma, 2nd is hop saturation/flavor as your juicy alpha acids will oxidize and turn to bitter flavors, then it’s all downhill from there. You do not want an oxidized IPA with a pound of hops in it.

Latest updates include simplified malt bill, omission of Centennial hops, and minor adjustments to fermentation schedule.

Recipe Details

Batch Size Boil Time IBU SRM Est. OG Est. FG ABV
11 gal 60 min 46.3 IBUs 5.2 SRM 1.066 1.019 6.2 %

Style Details

Name Cat. OG Range FG Range IBU SRM Carb ABV
American IPA 14 B 1.056 - 1.075 1.01 - 1.018 40 - 70 6 - 15 2.2 - 2.7 5.5 - 7.5 %

Fermentables

Name Amount %
Pale Malt, 2-Row (Rahr) 11 lbs 44.9
Golden Promise (Simpsons) 9 lbs 36.73
Carafoam 2.5 lbs 10.2
Aromatic Malt (Briess) 1.5 lbs 6.12
Dextrose (Briess) 8 oz 2.04

Hops

Name Amount Time Use Form Alpha %
Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) 1.1 oz 60 min Boil Pellet 15.5
Apollo 0.55 oz 20 min Boil Pellet 17
Apollo 1 oz 10 min Boil Pellet 17
Citra 6 oz 1 min Aroma Pellet 12
Apollo 3 oz 1 min Aroma Pellet 17
Citra 9 oz 4 days Dry Hop Pellet 12
Apollo 3 oz 4 days Dry Hop Pellet 17

Yeast

Name Lab Attenuation Temperature
SafAle English Ale (S-04) DCL/Fermentis 73% 59°F - 75.2°F
SafBrew Specialty Ale (T-58) DCL/Fermentis 73% 60°F - 72°F
Safbrew Wheat (WB-06) DCL/Fermentis 68% 59°F - 75°F

Mash

Step Temperature Time
Mash In 156°F 60 min
Mash Out 168°F 35 min

Fermentation

Step Time Temperature
Primary 1 days 74°F
Secondary 3 days 62°F
Tertiary 4 days 32°F
Aging 4 days 45°F
Marshall Bishop

Author Marshall Bishop

More posts by Marshall Bishop

Join the discussion 79 Comments

  • BrewKaiser says:

    Thanks for sharing your recipe, Marshall. I’ve been researching a lot of Julius clone recipes and yours intrigues me the most. I prefer your use of wheat vs oats as most of the other clones use. I also think the crystal malts add the correct color and “sweetness” compared to honey malt (can really hit you if used too much) and turbinado sugar (I think would dry it out if anything). I also think use of Hefe yeast is smart.

    As for your late hop additions, you list them as 1 minute, but are these really intended as whirlpool? What IBUs, if any are extracting from these late additions. I would think sub 180* WP would extract more of the fruitiness.

    • MarshallB says:

      You’re welcome! I hope someone brews it and decides it’s as close as I feel. I changed some things based on recent brews, and a couple of things I learned over the last week. I’ve tried Honey Malt and agree that it doesn’t give that signature Treehouse flavor. I feel like you can really taste the clues if you drink Bright and SAP back to back – drinking the Bright first. Then following those with Julius, Haze, and Green, I pick up on some very unique similarities which led me to Biscuit Malt and the Hefe Yeast.
      I never use Turbinado because I normally try to add flavor through grain only, and reserve my use of sugar simply to add alcohol via dextrose.
      To answer your question – the 1 minute additions are knockout hops. I don’t whirlpool anymore unless I’m doing something like my recent 6 day Grain to Glass Session IPA (link to recipe coming soon). It seems to me like the purpose of large whirlpools is to carry hop polyphenols into fermentation. I can’t really tell a difference yet between adding a large whirlpool and just adding dry hops at the beginning of fermentation for the same desired juice effect through biotransformation during an active fermentation. I’m currently gathering data to support my theory that a whirlpool isn’t necessary. I’m also hoping that eliminating the whirlpool will allow for smaller amounts of total hop additions to get the same desired juice effect and hop BioT. As I set my total IBU target around 30 IBUs – adding a small amount at knockout seems like a decent combination of adding a little bitterness and extracting some additional fruit flavors before fermentation. I cool as quickly as possible, and am usually below 180* within about 5 minutes. So, worst case scenario I feel like this recipe adds less than 10 IBUs at flameout.

      • Colin says:

        Any chance of getting this in a 5 gallon version? I know it’s not as simple as cutting back 55% on everything listed. Cheers!

        • Hi Colin, I’ll see what I can do to put a 5 Gallon version out soon.
          I’m working on Haze and Green right now too, and will end up with 2 versions of Julius anyway. I’m going to have a simplified version that’s just a close approximation with creative liberties, and a harder version that is more accurate.
          I’ll need a couple of more brews on this recipe before I do all that though. If you put this recipe into BeerSmith, the main thing you’ll want to watch is the SRM and ABV. Another issue I’m hearing through feedback is I’m a little heavy on hops. This beer has been said (by everyone who drinks it) that it has more aroma than Treehouse beers.

          • Colin says:

            Thanks Marshall, I’m following the homebrewtalks thread as well, hoping to brew this in the coming weeks. I’m probably going to mess around with my own hop additions based on what I have, but would to nice to know grain bill + dry yeast amounts for 5 gallons. I’ll take a look at BeerSmith. Wish I had access to warrior extract, Treehouse says it adds to mouthfeel, but I’m stuck with pellets for now. Aroma is definitely something I’d like to improve on, my batches using Conan and WY1318 have left me desiring more even with closed transfers, natural carbonation, and little to no blowoff once in the serving keg.

      • Isiah says:

        This is interesting. I’ll be brewing my 3rd iteration of my NEIPA on Saturday. Normally I have a 6oz Whirlpool going around 130F (5gal). So you’re saying I could just not whirlpool and go straight to dry hopping during active fermentation? Sounds like a shorter (and cheaper) brew day to me so I’m down to try it if there isn’t a perceived difference!

        • Hello Isiah, that does kind of work. I’ve gone back to whirlpooling at low temps for at least 30 minutes. It does seem to add a better juiciness to the beer.
          My typical whirlpool now is 108* – then I pitch my yeast at 85*

          • Isiah says:

            Awesome, good to know! Any reason for pitching yeast so “warm”? It always takes me so long to drop temp from, say, 85F to 70F, so if I could pitch yeast at 85F with no problems then I’m all for that as well. Thanks Marshall!

      • Steve says:

        Have you tried using Summit instead of Columbus?

        Have you tried Medusa hops in your Green Clone? Read the description of this hop. It sounds very much like the description of Green.

        • No I haven’t tried Summit like that. If you mean for bittering? I’d lean more towards Warrior or something more neutral. Summit hasn’t come up in any of my conversations yet.
          I tried Medusa this summer but not in a Green clone. Green has been commercially available for a lot longer than Medusa (Medusa was released last year). Some of the descriptors do sound like Green as you suggest. I didn’t get many of those flavors when I tried it though. I remember being unimpressed overall.

    • Mr.Dingles says:

      I’m assuming the extreme temp drop after 24 hours is to send those yeasts into dormancy? Fascinating.

      • Hi Mr. Dingles haha I love the screen name.
        The first temp drop is to shock the yeast a bit and calm fermentation. Since esters are volatile, my hopes are that the drop in temp will slow fermentation just enough to not blow off my esters.

  • Isomerization says:

    Love the post and thanks for the shout out! I’m brewing my stab tomorrow, going with a simpler grain bill of GP, flaked oats and honey malt (SRM 7). I’m curious how you arrived at the hop selection. I’ve always felt like Citra and Amarillo were definitely 2/3 hops in Julius, but couldn’t quite figure the 3rd. Apollo seems like a great option if I had any an hand (I’m using Simcoe in the whirlpool but not dry hop). I’m also planning on adding the T-58 with WB-06 on day 1, got to get that bubblegum! Mashing at 157F to try and keep it from drying out.

    • Sure thing man! Sorry I took so long to reply to this. I’m not getting notifications for some reason.
      157 worked great for me for that yeast selection. The beer had great body, but drank real clean with tons of citrus feel. Without sounding cliché…it was juicy…haha.
      For the hops – I did a bunch of single hop experiments to get to know all the hops better and then started blending based on my findings. I had Simcoe in the original recipe, and feel like it could still fit. It’s too hard to know for sure.
      I’m brewing right now actually. I’m doing way different hops and a much simpler malt bill today, but keeping the 3 yeasts and changing the pitching rates/schedule quite a bit. I made starters yesterday with the T58 and WB06 so I could taste them again. I haven’t really decided how I’m going to pitch tonight. I might be leaning towards following something similar to your idea and underpitch T58/WB06 together for 24 hours this time.

      • HokieJoe says:

        How did your last brew go? Did you prefer the different yeast schedule?

        • Hi HokieJoe – This pitching schedule seemed to take off a little quicker than the previous one simply because I was pitching more yeast on the front end, I’d guess. I’d say it still smells incredible, but I haven’t tasted it yet. My closed chest freezer is filling my entire 3 car garage with fruity aromas. I can’t wait to taste it haha but that’s every brew!

  • Justin says:

    Hey Marshall,

    Quick question regarding your water adjustments…

    I am working off the Bru’N water template and it gives the following options as salt additions that I can input:

    Gypsum
    Epsom Salt
    Canning Salt
    Baking Soda
    Calcium Chloride
    Chalk
    Pickling Lime
    Magnesium Chloride
    Lactic

    The spreadsheet also lists the following water properties that are adjusted based on salt additions (in ppm):
    – Calcium
    – Magnesium
    – Sodium
    – Sulfate
    – Chloride
    – Bicarbonate

    In your water adjustments, what Bicarbonate level did you achieve (in ppm)? Also, what should I be entering as my desired target to match up with yours for Calcium, Magnesium and Chloride? If I am looking to increase my overall Calcium and Magnesium levels, what Salts should I add to do so?

    • I had to open my spreadsheet to see. My bicarb level is -145ppm with gypsum, epsom salt, and canning salt.
      I have a custom target based on the ions I’d like. I don’t think there’s a Desired Water Profile as Bru’n Water has it listed in the sheet that will match what I was trying to achieve.
      If you want to increase your calcium and magnesium (of course it depends on your base water) you can use gypsum and calcium chloride. I use canning salt for my chloride to keep the calcium as near zero as possible.

      • Justin says:

        Thanks! In the version of Bru’n Water that I have, there is the option of entering in a custom water profile you want to achieve so that is why I am asking. I am able to enter in PPM values for all of the fields I mentioned above, so figured I’d try and map to what you had listed. Thanks so much!

      • Justin says:

        Do you mind sharing where your Sodium level is currently targeted at in PPM? Thanks man.

      • Justin says:

        Any suggestion on the Sodium PPM?

  • Justin says:

    Hey Marshall, any suggestions on the sodium level (in PPM) you target?

    Thanks,
    Justin

  • Mike says:

    Hello,
    I have a question on the amount of yeast you are pitching. Based on the yeast calculators I use for 11 gallons at 1.066 OG the 26 grams of total yeast is far too little. The calculator estimates the 26 grams at 260 billion cells and the target for the batch to be 672 billion so that leave this short 412 billion cells. Most things I have read indicate that you are better off slightly over pitching since stressed yeast gives off bad aromas and flavors. I’ve done a lot of batches and always slightly over pitched and never had any issues with stressed yeast.

    I just want to verify that the 26 grams enough for an 11 gallon batch. It just seems like it is not nearly enough yeast.

    Thanks.

    • That’s kind of a generalized question in my knowledge of yeast cell counts. For instance, s04 t58 and wb06 all have different cell counts per gram. So, without a little more information the math is incomplete. (This is how I understand it anyway)
      I typically pitch about 22 grams per 12 gallon batch and I don’t have any issues with fermentation. In fact, you want the yeast stressed somewhat to bring out the esters we’re after.

  • Werral says:

    some info about Treehouse Beers from Nate:
    – “theoretical IBUs on Julius/ Green etc well north of 100.”
    – “no flaked anything…”
    – “the only pale beer I have brewed with wheat was Curiosity Six..”

    • Yes I agree and have been making adjustments as I learn more about this recipe.
      My theoretical IBUs are way over 100.
      I’m about to make another update to the recipe that simplifies it even further than I have. No wheat at all.
      I’m leaving a couple of things in for flavor simply because I don’t think I’ll ever be able to replicate his beers exactly. However, this is getting so close in flavor and appearance that it definitely carries the signature Treehouse flavor, and therefore close enough for homebrewing purposes. Maybe with enough versions brewed I’ll be able to dial it in to clone level.

  • Alfred says:

    Hello,

    I’ve never used dry yeast before so I have a couple questions.

    “Day 1 – 4 grams of S-04 and 2 grams of WB-06 at 74* for 24 hours”
    – are you adding the dry yeast into the cooled wort or are your re-hydrating it first?
    – if you are re-hydrating, do you re-hydrate both strains in one vessel or are your re-hydrating them separately
    “Day 2 – reduce temperature to 60* and pitch 18 grams of S04 and 2 grams of T58”
    – same questions as above

    “Day 5 – raise temp to 70* and dry hop for 4 days”
    – are you adding the dry hops to the primary fermenter or are you transferring to a secondary on to hops?

    “Day 9 – cold crash for 4 days and keg or bottle”
    – what temp are you cold crashing to?

    Cheers for beers!

    • Hi Alfred, happy to answer these questions and thanks for taking the time to read through the whole thing.
      I do not bother with re-hydrating the dry yeasts that I’ve used form Fermentis. They take off so fast, that I’ve never even considered it.
      I always dry hop in my primary fermenter – rarely will I ever transfer off the trub and out of primary unless the beer will be aging for some reason. There is too much risk of oxidation for me.
      I usually crash to 42ºF.
      Let me know if you have any other questions!

  • Tim says:

    Hey Marshall by any chance could you share your Green or Haze recipes? Great work by the way! I’ getting ready to give this recipe a stab this weekend! Are you planning on updating this before the end of the week?

    • I’ll update it tomorrow. I’ve just been looking for time to do it.
      I haven’t fully written the Green or Haze recipes yet, but I’ll get them up as soon as possible. Looking for a few tweaks before I publish anything on those 2. SAP will be included once I release those.

      • Tim says:

        Thank you for updating the recipe! Any tasting notes vs the “old” recipe?

        • Hi Tim, I’d say this one is cleaner as it drops the wheat. I also dropped the Biscuit because I felt like it added too much toastiness as a subtle roasted flavor. Overall it’s very similar – just dialed in more.

          • Tim says:

            When you pitch your yeast at 85 do you just let it free fall to 74?

          • Yes I do. I started doing that after Scott Janish’s article about pitching temps and glycerol. There was some coinciding research I found that insisted there are no ill effects pitching warm like that, and it in fact cured problems like lag time. I only notice issues when I massively underpitch (and I’m talking like 2 grams of yeast per fermenter) the beer will take on a slight medicinal flavor.

          • Tim says:

            One more question for you. When you transfer your wort to your fermenter do you let the break material settle and then dump it off before pitching? I’ve been thinking about doing this because even with the use of my hop blocker I still end up with a lot of hop matter in my fermenter. I’ve been doing some research on the matter and most seem to think it doesn’t add any off or undesired flavors. Just wondering what your two cents are.

          • It shouldn’t create any off flavors. I don’t transfer that stuff because I want the extra room in my fermenter. When I transfer, I use a closed transfer setup with a hose clamped onto the bottling spigot at the bottom of my ale pail.

          • Tim says:

            So I’ve been reading through the TH isolation thread and I’m curious why no oxygenation of the wort before pitching the yeast? Did I miss something?

          • Hey no worries. I don’t oxygenate because dry yeast carry the necessary sterols for a healthy growth cycle. You can oxygenate it, but my goal is to stress the yeast. I want them to work for my esters.
            Oxygen is a fuel for lipid synthesis which creates sterols.

          • Tim says:

            I’ll remember that for next time. Have you given the CBC 1 carbonation a shot? I was thinking about doing it with one of my kegs for a side by side comparison. If you have, did you notice any contributions to mouthfeel?

          • I have not. I don’t understand what it can do yet. I’d probably need to order some CBC-1 and do some one off small batches to get a feel for the yeast first before I tried mixing it in hoping it will change the mouthfeel.
            For me the softness was about the simplest and most logical approach…if you want soft beer, start with soft water. IMO adding salts like cacl2 add too much hardness to the water to ever have the right mouthfeel and softness. I think chloride is good, but I also think calcium is bad for what we’re trying to accomplish.

          • Tim says:

            I looked into use canning salts but EZ Water does have that as an additive. So I’m not sure how to calculate the ppm and I don’t have my own water test kit. Maybe I should invest in one. I am currently using %100 RO and building my water up. With the last batch I brew I used cacl2 and my Calcium was 84 ppm. Which is double what you had.

          • A water kit helps for sure, but it adds another layer of complexity to everything.
            I’ve gotten my calcium down to about 20ppm now.
            If you look at the wiki page for each ion compound you’ll see the formula and how to break them down. Cacl2 is 1 calcium ion for 2 chloride ions. So like when I use table salt I know that sodium chloride is 1:1. Canning salt is sodium chloride also with a ratio of 1:1 so you can sub table salt in the water calculator and still get the same ppm.

  • Troy says:

    Marshall my friend you are a true gentleman and a scholar. I am sitting at work and just opened the latest email update – oh mer gerrrrrd I cannot wait leave and give this a go. Have you tried Imperial Yeast with any of your previous iterations? I cannot speak to them too much as a relatively new brewer but they have definitely improved the quality of my beers even before I started manipulating water chemistry. The following three come to mind – the latter included given your recent hefe epiphany.

    A04 Barbarian: “Ready to attack your IPA, Barbarian produces stone fruit esters that work great when paired with citrus hops. Barbarian will give you what you need for an exceptionally balanced IPA.”
    Temp: 62-70F, 16-21C // Flocculation: Medium // Attenuation: 73-74%

    A38 Juice: “Juicy. Fruity. Juice is an amazing strain for East Coast IPAs. The ester profile of Juice brings out the aromas and flavors of the new school hops and creates a beers that is greater than the sum of its parts. Keep an eye on this strain, it likes to move to the top of fermentation and will climb out the fermenter if too full.”
    Temp: 64-74F, 18-23C // Flocculation: medium // Attenuation: 72-76%

    B56 Rustic: “This unique yeast can be used in your saison, farmhouse ale, or other Belgian styles where high ester levels are important. Rustic typically produces a lot of bubblegum and juicy aromas that compliment complex maltiness.”
    Temp: 68-80F, 20-27C // Flocculation: Medium // Attenuation: 72-76%

    I really appreciate the work you’ve done here – thank you! I will follow up once this is in glass.

    • Hi Troy! Thanks for taking the time to read the post. I hope your beer turns out awesome.
      I have used a couple of Imperial yeasts. I love their product, but can’t get it in Houston without ordering on the internet – and then it gets to be like $15 for a single can with shipping.
      I used the Citrus and Barbarian strains, then used the blend of the 2. I would love to try their Belgian strains too.
      Barbarian was a solid ‘Conan’ tasting yeast.
      Citrus was really awesome but lent itself to a subtle saison like flavor that sort of overpowered some hops. I bet with the right hop combination it would be killer.

      • Troy says:

        Split the batch into two 5-gallon carboys. Pitched ‘Juice’ into one and ‘Rustic’ into the other. The description of juice was not kidding – thankfully had a blowoff hose as that bad boy was ripping giant CO2 farts and dumping krausen into blowoff jar. My closet smells so damn good right now! Also, really surprised by the difference in colors – Juice currently has a bright thick orange opacity whereas rustic has a deeper brown/amber transparency.

        Quick follow up….Why the need to cold crash? It is my rudimentary understanding that cold crashing is for clarity purposes so given Julius’ infamous haze are there other benefits to cold crashing that I am not aware of? Regardless, does the residual haze come from the crazy amount of dry hops? Or the big whirlpool? So.many.questions.

        • Awesome man! Yeah it’s always weird to see different yeasts make the same beer a different color.
          I had heard when they first released that strain it was basically 1318, but feedback since then kind of contradicts that a little. Although 1318 can be a beast too.

          So this is where I kind of get on my high horse about yeasty beers. haha
          To me, if you’re using suspended yeast to “chase” the haze then you’re approaching the entire style in a manner that will result in very unstable beers, and ultimately a keg full of disaster like clogged lines and clear beer with all the goodies dropped out.
          I cold crash because the haze shouldn’t be from heavier particles like yeast cells and sediment causing material like hot break. My beers will hold their haze for weeks and even months. Where local breweries in my area who approach it as a ‘haze only goal’ usually end up with clear beers in a matter of a few days after canning/bottling.
          To each their own. I started brewing these beers that way, then realized it didn’t work. The haze should be a combination of everything in your process. Treehouse has been measured by yeast cell counts to contain no more yeast than a typical bright IPA.

    • Tim says:

      So I’ve been reading through the TH isolation thread and I’m curious why no oxygenation of the wort before pitching the yeast? Did I miss something?

  • Dan m says:

    Are you using dextrose to naturally carbonate?

  • Samuel Collin says:

    Hi Marshall, very interesting post ! I have few questions about IBU (real and theorical). You said that your target is around 30 IBU (feeling at drinking) but you also said that your theorical IBU is over 100 (as Treehouse said too).

    I usually brew same batch size as you do (11 gal.) and I have a counter flow chiller so it’s taking me at least 30 mins to fill my fermenter at 85F (closer to 45 mins during summer). Generally I am doing my hopstand at 167F. Beersmith give me some IBU but I think it’s not really accurate. Do you have any tips to know approx my real IBU (I’am affraid of having too much bitterness of sweetness)

    Big Thanks !!!

    Sam

    • Hi Sam, thanks for visiting the site. Sorry for the late reply.
      In my experience, this is what I’ve seen…the dry hopping with certain hops will add perceived bitterness in large amounts with pellets. I’ve even found research that shows alpha acids can isomerize on their own through time as a natural decaying process once your beer is packaged. To me, the whole point of IBU is to visually show what level of isomerized alpha acids are present in the beer, but it only takes into account for the bitterness added during your boiling process.
      What I would like to say is, because of how BeerSmith (and really the beer industry) measures IBUs as compared to how we make IPAs these days, the figure is somewhat a moot point. In addition to that, Centennial or Cascade adds more bitter flavor through dry hopping than some of the other fruity hops and quite a bit more bitterness [flavor only here] than some of the milder hops we use.
      I suppose you could say I only put that information in there as a reference point for people who are using BeerSmith to brew at home. I wish I had a better answer for you, but I do agree that your IBUs are not accurate.
      Some tricks I like to use are:
      – during whirlpool if under 180º, add your WP addition as only 1 minute to reduce the amount of IBUs displayed in BeerSmith
      – move your knockout hops back a little in the recipe to represent the true amount of time those hops will be above 180º
      Other than that? I’m kinda of not much help here.

      • Craig says:

        Hi Marshall,
        Love the website and the detail you go into, keep up the good work!

        I was hoping you may be able to offer some advice.

        I’m planning on brewing a 5GL batch but I can’t get Apollo where I live (Australia).
        Can yo urecommend an alternative hop?

        I’m struggling to find a suitable substitute but I do have access to Eureka which I *think* may do the job: http://www.hopslist.com/hops/dual-purpose-hops/eureka/

        I would love to hear your thoughts on a substitute 🙂

        Thanks in advance!

        • Australia 🇦🇺?? Awesome!
          I’m sure you can substitute the Apollo and still get pretty close. What about a blend of Columbus and Amarillo? I think that would cover most of the flavor descriptors of Apollo?
          Curious your thoughts.

          • Craig says:

            Hey Marshall, sorry for the late reply, unfortunately I didn’t seem to get a notification of your reply.

            I managed to get hold of what seems to be the last 300g of Apollo in Oz so looking forward to brewing this weekend 🙂

            I think you’re right re Columbus and Amarillo but thankfully I wont need them 😉

            I scaled a version of the recipe (I use a grainfather) for a 6GL Batch ultimately aiming for 5GL in the fermenter, I thought you may want to share it if you decide wanted to, you can find it here:

            https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/576822/julius-clone-trinity-brewing-scaled-to-grainfather

            I also have a 10GL version based on your recipe that I scaled from, happy to share that also if it’s of use.

            I’ll let you know how it goes 🙂

          • Hey awesome thanks for sharing! I have been meaning to cut these back to 5 gallons, but just can’t seem to get around to it. I have hops in the freezer that need wort badly!
            Hopefully some of the other readers will enjoy your 5 gallon recipe too. I’ll put a link up in the page letting people know it’s down here.

  • Casey says:

    Hey, enjoyed the writeup and definitely interested in trying out this brew. It sounds like you have had more attempts at this than most people, and I’m surprised nobody else has mentioned the use of apollo in the huge thread on HBT. Looks like I will have to order some from an upcoming homebrewclub bulk buy! What do you think about halving the yeast usage? It seems two packs is quite a lot for a brew whose gravity isn’t too crazy.

    • Hi Casey thanks for checking the site out. I definitely think the yeast amounts can be adjusted based Brew volumes and gravity.
      One thing I’ve learned here is there’s no ‘right way’ and it’s more about what works for you.

  • Jerry says:

    Are the knockout hops now being replaced by the 108 whirlpool for 30 min?

    • Hi Jerry,
      I apologize for the way the recipe reads. I need to adjust the BeerSmith file for the website. I do add both knockout hops and whirlpool hops. Usually my knockout hops are the same size as my dry hops.

      • Brian says:

        Hey Marshall, thanks for posting this…lots of good info here. I’m currently in the middle of fermenting my first try at this. I’m following your fermentation schedule…and so far on day 4 I can smell a lot of “Belgian-like” esters. Not sure if that’s normal…certainly a different smell than my normal NEIPAs that I make with 1318 yeast. I’m thinking of dry hopping earlier on Day 5 as fermentation already seems to be slowing and I assume I want to catch some of that with the dry hop. So the recipe as posted only lists 1min additions…which I assumed were the 108 degree whirlpool hops. Are you saying there are also knockout hops in addition to these? Thanks

        • Hi Brian,
          Yes the 1 minute additions are the whirlpool additions as the recipe is written above. The recipe of course looks a little different in BeerSmith and for some reason (design flaws I haven’t addressed yet) the recipe doesn’t display on the website 100% like I’d like it to.
          I don’t typically smell any Belgian like esters when I use this yeast blend and fermentation schedule. Do you mind going over everything for me?
          I have noticed that some people have had different experiences than me in that they acquire some phenolic notes early on, but after the beer is carbed/kegged that goes away. I’m not sure why some people are getting that Belgian character early on, but everyone tends to agree that the beer changes quickly and those flavors/aromas go away before the beer is ready to drink. Don’t be afraid to dry hop early. I always tell people not to follow any exact schedules. You don’t tell the beer when it’s ready, it tells you..am I right?

          • Brian says:

            Haha yup you are right so I had no hesitation with dry hopping earlier. I am happy to go over everything with you…I’ve been “chasing” that tree house flavor for awhile now. I’m “only” 90 min from tree house so I’d be willing to send you some cans to help you with your “research” so hopefully we can all get closer to their beers. Send me an email if you don’t mind and we can talk details. I’m fortunate that my homebrew setup allows really good temperature control so I’m hoping the aromas end up right where we want them after this is done fermenting. So I’m still a little confused. Is there still a whole batch of knockout hops missing from this recipe as posted on the website? If so that’s a lot of hops! I have it entered in BeerSmith and the IBUs are similar as you have here. I had to adjust the grain amounts a bit for my system but I expected that. Thanks again

          • Awesome! Email on the way! haha
            No the knockout hops aren’t missing. What I’ve found is that Treehouse seems to have this perfect balance of malt, hops, and yeast esters. That ultimately led me to adding less and less hops to bring the esters forward, as well as, mashing higher to bring out more of the breadiness that residual malt flavors can bring.
            I’m typically heavy handed when it comes to dry hopping, but if you want that perfect Treehouse balanced flavor and aroma then you’ll want to dial back the overall amount of hops. I feel like somehow their head brewer Nate worked out the perfect trifecta of those elements.

      • Jerry says:

        Just finished dry hopping. I used Amarillo in the kettle as my LHBS didn’t have Apollo; however, I did dry hop with Apollo. I’m interested to see how this yeast experiment goes—my first time using dry yeast.

  • Devon says:

    Marshall,

    How do you achieve 150PPM Sulfates and 100PPM Chlorides with only 20PPM Calcium? Are you using Sodium and Magnesium to hit this?

    Just trying to figure out how this Tree House alter ego has high sulfates and chloride with lower Calcium:

    https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3590-minerals-profile-in-the-glass

    Thanks,
    Devon

    • I lean towards Kimmich’s sentiment (obviously or you wouldn’t be asking this question), but yeah I don’t use gypsum like I used to. I use canning salt, calcium chloride, gypsum, and epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) to hit my numbers. My latest using all 4 of these building up from reverse osmosis water looks like this:
      Ca 15
      Mg 26
      Na 78
      So2 140
      Cl 120
      Hope that helps!

      • Devon Reed says:

        Yes, this is what I figured, thanks! Any reason why you are using less Gypsum these days? Is there something you’re trying to achieve by keeping that Calcium level down while boosting the SO4 and CL levels with other cations?

        I have the fortunate luxury of being able to drink Tree House all the time. I am amazed every time I drink one of their beers. I ask my self, “how does Nate do this? What did he do to get it this way?”. The thing that always strikes me is the mouthfeel and balance. It has a nice sweetness to it but it quickly dries out and you have a wave of nice subtle bitterness that prevents it from being cloying.

        • Ah you lucky son of a gun! I can’t even get Treehouse anymore. Which is weird to me given the sudden influx of product from the new facility. I have a trip planned to Connecticut for Christmas though and am hoping I get to see the brewery.
          Yes, I started going lower on my calcium because for me the approach seemed to make sense – if you want soft beer, start with soft water and keep the hardness ions out of the equation. That approach has worked really well for me. I’ve gotten feedback that the mouthfeel is spot on.
          There are breweries near me who are adding like 300ppm Cl and I can taste it. I can’t deal with that chalky mineral flavor when drinking more than one can. On the other hand, I can drink Treehouse all day and it only seems to get better after the 2nd and 3rd can.

    • Jerry says:

      Just finished the cold crash, siphoning to keg and it has a Belgian taste to it. I read in the comments that this characteristic should disappear fairly quickly.

  • Jeremy says:

    Marshall, really appreciate the work you put in on this… probably brewing something very similar this weekend or next week. I’ve been experimenting with yeast blending, mostly combinations of US-05 and US-04… excited to try the wheat yeast with the 04. For an 11 gal batch, looking to simplify the process a bit and will plan on running 3 packs of 04 and 1 pack of the WB-06, probably ambient temps around 63-65F. I’m also looking to run a water profile a little closer to what Shaun Hill uses (so I hear) for his hoppy brews, 100 ca, 10 mg, 96 so4, and 144 cl. I’ll post results when complete-

  • Erick says:

    I am very new to brewing and would like to try this recipe but simplify it a bit. I see you recommend using WY3638 as a single yeast alternative. How much should I use? Should I only pitch the yeast on day 1? Would I be able to achieve decent, even if not perfect, results if I only do a primary fermentation? Forgive my ignorance. Also, I see what you did there with the Konami code. I’m a big fan of Contra 😉

    • Hi Erick! Thanks for visiting the site.
      3638 isn’t perfect, but it comes out very fruity. Your best bet might be to pitch a full healthy yeast amount only on day 1 and let it ferment room temp if you don’t have a cooler or temperature control vessel. It won’t be perfect by any means, but you will get a nice fruit forward beer that’s easy to drink.
      I always recommend doing only primary with almost any beer, but especially with anything hoppy. The more times you rack it around the more opportunity it has to oxidize.

  • Joel Connolly says:

    Hey Marshall

    Wow! I’m in awe! What a write up and such awesome dedication working this hard to solve the puzzle.

    A quick clarification: in the brewers notes you list a different fermentation schedule to the recipe section. Which one is correct? Specifically, the biggest difference I see is the “tertiary” fermentation step which suggests crashing almost to 32f, followed by 4 days at 45f (I presume this is the dry hopping?) which, although not listed, I presume is still followed by cold crash?

    Thank you so much!

    Joel

    Ps also from Australia 🙂

    • Hey Joel! Cool stuff man. One day I’ll visit down there!
      Yeah for some reason I haven’t had time to dive into yet, the recipe shows up a little different in BeerSmith than on the website.
      The written fermentation schedule in the description is my correct guide for this beer.
      Apologies for the confusion and I hope you give it a shot.
      – M

  • Bob says:

    Hi Marshall

    Excellent write up.

    I have recently began endeavouring in trying to make some real juice bombs here in spain after thinking i could achieve something similar to deppelganger or julius in terms of how bold they are, i dont need to explain to you. btw you have no clue how hard it was to be able to try those beers out here. I have tried trilliums and pliny elder stuff too but to me treehouse is as you say perfectly engineered beers. I believe you are absolutely correct with the esters, i have gotten to the same conclusion myself upon brewing my first batch i thought striagh away, where’s that hefyness? I straight away learned that oats are not what can create that round and full mouthfeel (though they can certainly help.)
    Ive had good success with esteryness and gtting very! strong hints of vanilla and banana from mangrove jacks bavarian yeast. Im also a big fan of london ESB from lallemand for it creates a slight tropical aroma that i believe gets ridiculously exarcebated when hops rich in tropical and citrus smelling terpenes get biotransformed. Moreover it provides a background of green apple that just creates a fresh base for the hop profiles to carry through. Im sure the esters are extremely!! important in a hoppy beer for they complement the terpenes and terpenoid oils caught in the haze. A beer will never be as frehsly hoppy as a hazey beer for the oils need something to hang on to or they will rise where they are more easily volatilized through oxidation etc or percipitate with yeast particles and never come to light. I am going around 75% esb and 25% bavarian yeast and i repitch bavarian yeast when i dry hop usually after 24h (esb is a beast!) so that the yeast can biotransform whatever hop oils from dryhopping. I let fermentation temp naturaly reach 20C and as the esb is quiting down i dry hop and raise temps to 22ish to really kick the ester production. Thankfully bost yeasts have not displayed to produce a lot of fusel alcohols, except perhaps when i was adding sugar but only slightly.
    People who make cannabis extracts through non polar hydrocarbons need to subsequently purge the gas from the extraction, usually n butane, they never! go over 50/60C under full vacuum in order to avoid terpenes boiling off. So to me it has always made perfect sense to never whirlpool higher than 60C, I try to stay between 40/50 and i believe thats why youve had better results than higher temps. You are in the sweet spot where a lot of the plant oils can be made soluble in water but not high enough that the rate of volitilaztion will be through the roof. I also think adding some hops 5min left in the boil results better than adding at flameout, if youre gonna flame out just wpool at a low tem, but still boil some hops for 5min.
    Although i see your point when you talk about hop quantities and keeping the beer balanced, but not everyone gets the same hops, the citra i can get or that you can get or that treehouse gets are insanely different, if i want something close to the juiciness and hop taste i want im using 450/550 grams of hops in 5 gallons, i have gone over that but much more than that theres no real benefit though some tasters claimed to have percieved some more accentuated notes but not by much. Tbh i have a bit of a theory that maybe places like treehouse even dry and cure hop flowers as if it were cannabis to really preserve that fresh aroma, dry at low temperatures and about 55% rh for long time and cure at 10/14c where sugars in the plant can naturally ferment and the chlorophil degrade, and then once curing is done store at normal hop storing temps. Keeping that freshly cut hop aroma. I even think that using flowers and grinding them just before brewing and dry hopping would be even better for maximizing the essential oils available. Tbh pellets are just hops that have been ground mechanically (hence heat will oxidze some oils not to mention volatilize the most susceptible ones), then get pressed further spreading the oils and exposing them to air on the pellet surface and get stored at god knows what humidity in a bag at cool temperatures where bio organic processes wont really happen. In their flower form the oils are protected by the petals and leaf.
    anyways enough ranting thanks for the info man, im glad to see someone else agrees on the bavarian yeast! I hope my knowledge spurs some inquisity in you too! Let me know what you think about grinding hops just before brewing/dry hopping.

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